Returning after a long time.

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nitrate
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Re: Returning after a long time.

Post by nitrate » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:22 pm

Are the turbine type wheels original to this car? RB
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davedecker4
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Re: Returning after a long time.

Post by davedecker4 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:42 am

Richard, this was not in a US car or swapped from a US spec. 71-73 124 Spyder. I think he said its in India and drivetrain was swapped from some international market 125, which was usually a sedan with the 1608cc engine and could be available with 5spd. There were variants (including pu, convertible, etc) some with other engines or accessories and they were sold under license several places too. Byas I think you are thinking of the 2 different 1600's which were sold in US, mainly in Spiders. The first was from the 1438cc family which had twin cam head placed on earlier 1438cc OHV block, then stroke was lengthened to 80mm giving the 'square' 1608cc engine as used 124 spider here and 125 elsewhere.US market cars then went to the other 1600, which was 1592cc and related to later series engines of 1800, and 2L. I think first using 1800 crank but earlier bores, which later went to 84mm in the 1756 and 1995cc engines. I think the early 1608cc used the block mount dizzy as the 1438, then later head mount (at least used in US Spiders). You may be able to source a 1608 head somewhere in India or Russia for lower price. I suspect shipping one from US may be cost prohibitive. I too have one that could be usable if shipping proves to be manageable for you. What all parts do you need, bare head, valves, towers, cams, etc?
Also usually on US version that machined area might be stamped with engine number indicating which engine series and serial. Yours looks to have a number added later above that. As I recall on some earlier or later cars here, it wasn't on that exact surface but another flat spot on the block right near there. maybe up and to the left or right couple inches? Should be read from looking at side of block, not down. I don't think your head has all the number series US cars show either. Foreign market blocks and heads may not have same exact numbering that US market engines had btw.
I'm sure the turbina wheels are a later add on as well.
This does look like a solid, well cared for car. Hard to find one of these in such shape any more. Should be fun once finished. Enjoy
Welcome back.
Dave Decker
a 'couple' Fiats and Lancia's
bnam2
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Re: Returning after a long time.

Post by bnam2 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:29 am

Thanks Dave. I think I am coming to the conclusion it is a 1608 block and head and that the 5-speed is from the 1500 Cabrio itself. I downloaded a manual for the Cabrio and it does show a 5-speed. It has a 34 DCHD (chinese replica) carb. When I got it car would backfire on throttle off and miss and higher rpms. I found a disconnected ground strap. That seems to have cured the higer rpm miss. Still have occasional backfire.

The 34DCHD seems to be jetted with ~115 primary and 140 secondary main jets. But, the jets have no marking. Stock was 125 and 140. Bangalore is at 3000ft so a smaller main jet may be ok. Perhaps the secondary needs to be reduced as well?

Could the exhaust cam being one tooth off cause the backfire on letting go of throttle?

And yes, the Turbine style Cheviot wheels are a later add on.

Byas
Byas
1965 Fiat 1500 Cabriolet with 1600twin-cam
!971 VW 1302LS Convertible in original condition
1965 KG - under restoration
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Re: Returning after a long time.

Post by bnam2 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:57 pm

I had written to Guy Croft asking about the head stamping. In his response he stated:

"FF V5 S63 4301155

my records of code numbers has grown some since the 90s..

it is ex 124 Sport 1800, a big port head."

So, I have a 1608 block with 1800 head. So if I need a new head, I don't have to look only for 1608 heads. That helps.

Is there any advantage to using an 1800 head with a 1608 engine (vs. a 1608 head -- other than availability)?

Byas
Byas
1965 Fiat 1500 Cabriolet with 1600twin-cam
!971 VW 1302LS Convertible in original condition
1965 KG - under restoration
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bartigue
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Re: Returning after a long time.

Post by bartigue » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:06 pm

A few comments reading through these posts -

The blocks didn't get longer but taller. The heads interchanged, more or less. The head you have - 4301155 - is likely from a Lancia Beta 8V Coupe. It was also used by Abarth apparently on the 124 Rally. Your block - 4180231 - is likely a 125BC (1608) but you need the motor number, which appears to have been ground off, to know for certain.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Brad Artigue
1982 Spider 2000
I've restored, worked on, sold, bartered, and bled for:
1970, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982 124 Spiders -- 1969, 1970 850 Spiders -- 77 X1/9
http://fiat.artigue.com
fp55scca
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Re: Returning after a long time.

Post by fp55scca » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:18 pm

--Just for clarity, blocks did get longer to accommodate bore, but head spacing remained the same. The 1438 and 1608 blocks are the same length with an 80mm bore, but the 1608 is taller to handle the 80mm stroke.

--The 1592, 1756, and 1995 blocks are just a bit longer than 1438/1608 due to the 84mm bore on the latter two. While the 1592 was a 132 series block, and the same length and height as a 1756, it was only bored to 80mm; but you can't bore a 1592 to 84mm due to the water jacket casting! And, of course, the 2L is the tallest of the 132 series with 90mm stroke. Now, I'm sure this is clear as mud....

--As Brad noted, heads are essentially interchangeable, but a 1438/1608 head would need the water jacket opening at the front of the head welded up slightly to be used on a 132 series motor. And, as Byas asked, an 1800 head can be fitted to a 1608 motor, but there is no real benefit to doing so.
Jim Scurria
Norfolk, VA

1972 Fiat 124 Spider
1971 Spider - SCCA FP-24
1974 Fiat 124 Spider
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bartigue
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Re: Returning after a long time.

Post by bartigue » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:23 pm

bartigue wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:06 pm
A few comments reading through these posts -

The blocks didn't get longer but taller. The heads interchanged, more or less. The head you have - 4301155 - is likely from a Lancia Beta 8V Coupe. It was also used by Abarth apparently on the 124 Rally. Your block - 4180231 - is likely a 125BC (1608) but you need the motor number, which appears to have been ground off, to know for certain.
I'm wrong, they did get longer and taller. I never knew the block changed length between the series.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Brad Artigue
1982 Spider 2000
I've restored, worked on, sold, bartered, and bled for:
1970, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982 124 Spiders -- 1969, 1970 850 Spiders -- 77 X1/9
http://fiat.artigue.com
fp55scca
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Re: Returning after a long time.

Post by fp55scca » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:57 pm

--Byas, I think it's pretty clear that you have a 1608 block, but someone has gone to some length to disguise the origin. The driver's side of your block should have castings that look like this: "125A FIAT". It appears that someone has ground off the "125" casting from your block?

--The passenger side of your block reflects the correct "4180231" casting, consistent with a 1608.

--But, it appears that your stamped block serial number has been deleted on the driver's side, just above the oil filter mount. It should read "125BC 040" followed underneath with a 7 digit number beginning with "0". Looks like some has stamped a new serial number on your block, just above the original block serial, but the new number does not begin with zero.

--Your head is a mystery to me, but does not appear to be one that was used in the North American market. You would have to pull the head to be sure, look at the front water jacket port, and CC the chambers, etc. to narrow it down. It might be interesting to pull the exhaust cambox cover and peak to see if there is a distributor drive gear on the exhaust cam.
1608 Block Casting.jpg
1608 Block Casting.jpg (104.4 KiB) Viewed 418 times
1608 Block Casting.jpg
1608 Block Casting.jpg (104.4 KiB) Viewed 418 times
1608 Block Casting.jpg
1608 Block Casting.jpg (104.4 KiB) Viewed 418 times
Attachments
1608 Engine Serial.jpg
1608 Engine Serial.jpg (230.83 KiB) Viewed 418 times
1608 Casting Series.jpg
1608 Casting Series.jpg (97.66 KiB) Viewed 418 times
Jim Scurria
Norfolk, VA

1972 Fiat 124 Spider
1971 Spider - SCCA FP-24
1974 Fiat 124 Spider
bnam2
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Re: Returning after a long time.

Post by bnam2 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:28 pm

Jim,
Thanks for that confirmation and pics!!

I have a sneaky feeling that the racers who had this engine were trying to pass this off as stock to something it wasn't stock on and tried to remove all signs. :)

I'd like confirmation on one conclusion that I've come to that I've not read or seen anyone confirm -- that if the head and block are flush at the rear then it must be a 1608 or 1438 and it they are not flush then it must be 1592/1800/2000.

Any flaw to that conclusion?

Also, are there any pics that show the coolant gallery differences between the 1608 block and the 1800 head? If I recall what Csaba PM me, I think he said that no welding is require to use an 1800 HEAD on a 1608 BLOCK, but there would be for the reverse config. I'll search for these, but if anyone knows where to find these and can post a link or let me know, I'd be grateful.

Thanks guys for helping me feel like I know what I have in this car.
Byas
Byas
1965 Fiat 1500 Cabriolet with 1600twin-cam
!971 VW 1302LS Convertible in original condition
1965 KG - under restoration
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bartigue
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Re: Returning after a long time.

Post by bartigue » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:10 pm

It is not a 132 series block and therefore is not a 1592, 1756, or 1995. It has a casting number equivalent to a 1608.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Brad Artigue
1982 Spider 2000
I've restored, worked on, sold, bartered, and bled for:
1970, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982 124 Spiders -- 1969, 1970 850 Spiders -- 77 X1/9
http://fiat.artigue.com
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