Daydreaming a 2 litre

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friedman
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by friedman » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:22 am

The question no one asked, how do you plan to drive the car, street trolling, nice rides in the country, red line shifts at every opportunity, track days, etc?

I don't think a finned aluminum sump is a good idea as our oil pans are the lowest hanging fruit on a 124 and at some point you will hit it, I'd rather dent the pan than crack an aluminum one.

Not a big fan of oil coolers and Accumsumps for normal street driven cars, too many additional oil fittings that can come loose and leak oil...again this depends on your plans for the car.

Current wisdom is use 4mm domed pistons, the 8mm pistons give too much compression for street use, this info gleaned from all the folks who post here with 8mm pistons and have to keep dialing back their ignition timing.

I'm reading the comments above about FI and fat cams and don't understand why that would apply to FI with individual throttle bodies which pretty much replicates dual carbs.
Carl in Virginia
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SimcaBertone66
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by SimcaBertone66 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:50 am

Carl, you are incorrect about an Accusump.... takes just one additional, admittedly a large -10 AN , line to plumb in the Accusump, to the oil filter housing. Dude , even moderate cornering speeds on the street in a 124 Spider will make the OP dip lower... ain't nothing wrong with 20 psi before you crank the engine over …. oil leaks from an Accusump… nil in 20 + years of use in my 124 … An absolute necessity in a car that sees time on a race track, yeah sure, lots of folks track their 124's , but either don't notice or ignore the dramatic drop in oil pressure ….. whether cornering or deceleration …
Joe DeGasperis
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by cstorry » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:15 pm

Interesting how perspectives differ

Here's my little collection of balance shafts removed from my integrales !
Image

My motivation was to go for wider cambelt after suffering a piston to valve collision (approximately 25k km on belt). The belt did not break just sheared off a bunch of the teeth and wanted to avoid that happening again.

I never really noticed a difference in engine smoothness ...

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fiatrn
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by fiatrn » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:57 pm

"The question no one asked, how do you plan to drive the car,"
I question I have not answered for myself yet! In some ways, the Coupe does not have a clear spot in my garage of cars, and yet I look forward to having it functional and pretty. The plan is to make everything work, redo the interior, then gut the car and paint it. That's a long term plan. Driving out here is a messy combination of city annoyance and foothills/mountain fun. It won't get tracked, and I doubt it will supplant my cross country toy. I would like the car to be nearly as zippy as my Delta, with a little finer interior (nicer materials on the seats and carpet, it already has a leather dash (!)). I will probably opt for slightly lower springs but don't want the car to ride as hard as my Spider does on the red IAP springs.

Good point re: a finned alloy sump. I'm not sure they really exist anyhow.

"I'm reading the comments above about FI and fat cams and don't understand why that would apply to FI with individual throttle bodies which pretty much replicates dual carbs."
- I don't either, but I figure I'll know by the time this thread is complete. Or it will be reduced to hearsay. I remember putting a 40:80 cam set into a customer's stock FI car eons ago, and finding it felt flat - but I also think that car had stock pistons... it has been a Long time, though.

@cstorry - since Deltas aren't common here, I've never had the chance to ride in one that has had the balancers removed. On Lancisti.net I've read some opinions on them being just as smooth. Where are you that you have such access to Deltas? Want to send me a long block? Ha!

@davedecker - I don't really plan to cut down the crank, just wondering at the feasibility, payoff, cost of doing such a thing (as i pretend I have limitless money). I will definately go the balanced route - piston-piston, rod-rod, and then spin balancing the crank, if I remember the proper sequence.

Non ethanol gasoline just does not exist in the Denver metro area. Periodically the claim will come up that someone carries it, but it never turns out to be available. THe "race gas"people often charge 8$ per gallon and are usually far enough away from me that I would use most of the tank just driving home.
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friedman
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by friedman » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:52 am

JD, I'm not saying the Accusump is a bad idea, just saying for a street motor it's not needed. I used to track day a few of my spiders and did note that in hard turns I could lose oil pressure, the poor man's solution was to add a quart of oil over the full line and problem solved. The only Fiat I had an oil cooler on was my trackday/street X1/9 and when I noticed a hearty wet trail behind my car coming from tech I found a leaking fitting for the cooler...end of track day for me and bought several quarts of oil to make the one hour drive home....yes that was my wrenching fault but still, we are talking about a street motor.
Carl in Virginia
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beek
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by beek » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:02 am

this is my build for my 75 spider

spec's

9.8-1 1800
Ballanced, bored 1mm
aluminum flywheel
42/82 cams
dual idf's rejetted
big valve, ported and polished head
adjustable cam gears
remote filter and oil cooler
header, 2.5" exhaust
msd 6al ignition
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2018 Abarth Spider, Daily
2016 500X wifes daily
2014 500L daughters daily
1982 Zagato (+2 parts cars)
1978 Spider Sons daily
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ST3Racer
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by ST3Racer » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:25 pm

fiatrn,
There is nothing mysterious or wrong with ethanol content in the fuel available in Colorado. A great engine can be built using the available 91 octane fuel with 10% ethanol content. I am in Colorado and have built both carbie versions of 2l 8valve Fiat TCs, 1.8L race engines, and Volumex Supercharged (E85fueled) examples of the FIAT TC engines. Maybe you should contact me by PM to discuss your 'dream build'. Corn is fabulous for fuel and not so wonderful for food for either man or animal....
Bill McMahan
Parker, Colorado
'69 124 Spider 2L Volumex NASA ST3 Racecar
'74 124 Abarth Stradale Replica
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vandor
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by vandor » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:56 pm

fiatrn wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:39 am
@Csaba
- Why do you think that big cams and programmable FI will be trouble? And, of course, what do we mean by hi-performance cams? More than the 10.5mm lift, 300 degree duration, 40:80:80:40 pittatori cams I have in my 1800? I'm looking for suggestions, not trying to sound flippant or sarcastic.
PGM FI relies on the engine vacuum signal to meter fuel. Hi-po cams have much lower vacuum that regular cams. A stock cam will have ~17 inHg vacuum at idle, and lets say 10 going down the freeway. A hi-po cam will have 10 at idle and 4 going down the free way. So the range of vacuum that the map sensor can measure will be much smaller, and also less steady, less reliable. Basically it will be nearly useless. Then you will have to use only rpm and TPS to determine fueling, and that is not enough to have a smooth running street engine.

The cams I used were the GC 3A cams, ones that can easily make ~160HP in a built 2 liter TC. We fought the FI for a year, then gave up and went with 44IDFs.
The 40-80 can probably make 130-140 Hp. The vacuum signal from those may be ok, I don't know, they are definitely a milder cam than the 3A.
Csaba
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'71 124 Spider, much modified
'72 124 Coupe, new project, ex-Pete, ex-Eli, ex-Jack car (all Mira members)
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by fiatrn » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:36 pm

Casba,
Thank you for the vacuum explanation. Since I consider 40:80 @ 300duration cams to be "big cams" for a street car, it seems my definition of big cams doesn't match other folks, who are talking higher lift/ longer duration?

What cams have folk here used on 2 litres?

It does sound like I'll have to be careful in creating a setup to bring manifold pressure to the map sensor.

@beek - thanks for the reminder about adjustable cam wheels. I recently bought a set for my Lancia (I am about to perform a major service on that since I have finished building my garage), and I'm hoping they will also fit 124, bc they are gorgeous.

@Bill - I don't want to get on an anti-ethanol rant. I have no choice but to run E10 here in the Denver area, so this engine will have to be set up for E10. I would love to learn from you - I saw one of your cars at Automezzi this year and it looked fabulously built. Your input is more than welcome - it is desired!

- in the photos you posted, your car seems to not have the lower radiator hose in the usual place. Did you move it to the left side? Or is the photo just of the engine before that was installed?

I have had a lot of troubles with E10 - fuel line corrosion, fuel boiling in the carbs, etc. My IDF equipped Spider does fine. However, when I had 4 IDFs crammed into the valley of a mid mounted V8, E10 was a pita mess. Though carbs can work great, I want the flexibility & smoothness of fuel injection.



To those running lightened flywheels - do you find the throttle is difficult to modulate at cruise speeds? Does it have too much engine braking?

I know a radiator genius. Again assuming infinite money, should I use an aluminum radiator?
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vandor
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by vandor » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:00 am

> Since I consider 40:80 @ 300duration cams to be "big cams" for a street car, it seems my definition of big cams doesn't match other folks,

My Spider has 40/80s, I've had them for ~20 years. They improve power and torque, but if one was not familiar with Spiders they would not necessarily know that the car has aftermarket cams. So they are relatively mild.

As far a scam timing, the usual specs like lift, duration and timing don't even tell half the story of how hot a cam is. Those figures do not tell how fast a cam opens the valve, or how long it keeps it near full lift. One could have two cams, both timed at 40-80 80-40, and one could open the valve fast and keep it near full lift longer, while the other could open the valve slowly and be near full lift for only a short time. They would provide very different driving experiences, yet both would have the same timing. So don't put too much weight on the cams' data, but rather get opinions on what works, what have people used.

IMHO a 40-80 is good for a mild performance engine, say 130 HP. For a true hi-po street engine, one that has forged rods and pistons and makes ~160HP, much hotter cams are needed.

> To those running lightened flywheels - do you find the throttle is difficult to modulate at cruise speeds? Does it have too much engine braking?

I have a ~8 lbs aluminum flywheel in my Spider and there are no adverse effects.
Csaba
Parts: http://www.autoricambi.us
Cars: http://italiancarclub.com/csaba/Fiat.html
'71 124 Spider, much modified
'72 124 Coupe, new project, ex-Pete, ex-Eli, ex-Jack car (all Mira members)
'73 124 Wagon, no floors
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