Daydreaming a 2 litre

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beek
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by beek » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:47 am

if you are referring to my lower hose, it was just not installed yet and the pump was caped off to keep anything out
2018 Abarth Spider, Daily
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cstorry
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by cstorry » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:01 pm

Fiatrn

@cstorry - since Deltas aren't common here, I've never had the chance to ride in one that has had the balancers removed. On Lancisti.net I've read some opinions on them being just as smooth. Where are you that you have such access to Deltas? Want to send me a long block? Ha!

I live near Ottawa in Canada. We never got Delta's here either but our import rules allow cars in after 15 years as opposed to the US 25 so I had a head start.

I am rebuilding a couple spiders right now so will (ok within a year or so) hopefully have something to report back about using the integrale block in a spider

Chuck
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by fiatrn » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:48 pm

@beek - oops, i was indeed referring to your photo of the gorgeous blue car. I thought perhaps you had changed the plumbing. that car looks wonderful!


@Chuck - If you have a spare counterbalanced block, send it my way. I can always test fit it in a 124A Coupe...


Csaba - "I have a ~8 lbs aluminum flywheel in my Spider and there are no adverse effects."

Good to know. And 8 pounds seems VERY light.

Thank you all for the continuing discussions, especially the camshaft discussion stuff. Cams can be hard to discuss because, as you said, there are a lot of variables - opening and closing ramp speed, duration at full open, max lift. Back when I bought my 40:80 cams, I think they were the only option in 40:80 cams, so it was easy to refer to them as such.


To follow Csaba's advice - what aftermarket cams have people here used on their Fuel injected cars?




regarding my intent - I once thought i wanted to build a Coupe into a grand tourer of equal performance (under 100 mph!) of a Porsche 928. Copying the power-weight ratio, that would require a 180hp engine (and then I thought, hmm, I could just put in a Lancia Delta 8V engine...).

I have also thought that I could replicate the power of a Lancia Delta in the lighter weight 124AC. Doing that would require less power and possibly be easier to do because it would not require turbocharging (or would it?). An equal power:weight ratio as an 8V Delta woud require 140hp in a Coupe.

Building a non-turbocharged engine of that power level interests me - can I make one that's streetable and usable (not just a 7000rpm buzzbomb (I am too old for them))? Because if I'm going to turbocharge the car, Lancia and Fiat did all the design work, and I would be better off figuring out how to obtain and install an 8V or 16V Lancia/Fiat engine...

I then decided that 150hp seems like a nicer number, because that allows me to add a little weight to the coupe (some sound insulation ,perhaps a/c someday, a set of driving lights on the front???). So that's where I came up with the idea of 150hp.


Maybe the title of my thread should be "let's build of 150hp 2.0 litre"... but I also like learning what combinations people have put together, liked, disliked, etc.
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atruscott
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by atruscott » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:15 pm

vandor wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:56 pm
Then you will have to use only rpm and TPS to determine fueling, and that is not enough to have a smooth running street engine.
Hey Csaba - on the micro/mega squirt, the Wideband O2 plays a pretty big part too... I've been playing with not using vacuum at all.
fiatrn wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:48 pm
To follow Csaba's advice - what aftermarket cams have people here used on their Fuel injected cars?
I've got a 40/80 in a FI spider that's running microsquirt. It started as a simple swap in of the microsquirt to replace the ECU. It's now updated to have a progressive TPS, a Wideband O2, and I'm playing with removing the MAP sensor. That said - she randomly started stumbling and spluttering the other day, so I've returned her to stock to diagnose (she's still doing it, so suspect fueling).
1960 Autobianchi Bianchina Transformabile
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1976 124 Sport Spider (The Racer)
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1985 Pininfarina Azzurra
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beek
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by beek » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:31 pm

just a thought..

build a 2.0l with forged 8.0-1 pistons
install a larger turbo capable to support 16-20 lbs of boost
install an intercooler large enough to cool the charge
use the stock bosch efi system and add additional load enrichment switches to keep the mixture within specs. You may also have to raise the fuel pressure and replace the injectors with larger ones capable to support the hp being made.

Monitor this with a wide band o2 sensor to ensure it does not get too lean or rich.

Seems pretty simple, probably not...One day I may try it.. Should make 200hp with those boost levels
2018 Abarth Spider, Daily
2016 500X wifes daily
2014 500L daughters daily
1982 Zagato (+2 parts cars)
1978 Spider Sons daily
1975 Spider Restored
(5) 1976 Lancia Scorpions, 3 that are being worked on to drive
(5) spider parts cars.
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SimcaBertone66
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by SimcaBertone66 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:44 am

My friend Mark had a Legend Spider and we built a 2L motor, I found a set of custom made Ross low compression (dished) pistons and forged rods... I They were found right here on the for sale forum ! , alt least 20m years ago …. ran pretty stoutly when it was not breaking one thing or another …
Joe DeGasperis
fiatrn
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by fiatrn » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:07 am

-"I've got a 40/80 in a FI spider that's running microsquirt. It started as a simple swap in of the microsquirt to replace the ECU. It's now updated to have a progressive TPS, a Wideband O2, and I'm playing with removing the MAP sensor."

Did you just change the intake cam, or both?

The microsquirt setup seems a nice choice (from my very brief research into modern FI), bc it comes with a lot of pre-wired options (tps, o2 sensor, map).

I don't really love the look and design of the stock Fiat fuel injection manifolds, and I despise the flapper-style AFM (though it works very well, I admit). That's why I like the idea of ITBs. I do like the Lancia Delta's manifolds, but since they are made for forced induction I am not sure they would flow well for normal aspiration.

I do love the responsiveness that my 1.8L Fiat engine gained when I converted to a dual carb setup. It presents challenges, but..

If I'm going to build a turbocharged engine, I'm going to source and use a stock turbo engine - Fiat/Lancia already solved the issues, and I doubt I could do a better job. Installing modern EFI and a modern turbo would probably make it work better, but the big ticket items (manifold design, heads, flow, rods, oiling, etc... I doubt i can out-think Lancia).
fiatrn
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by fiatrn » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:25 am

So far, the suggestions are:

The turtleback aircleaner might be a little restrictive.
ITBs carry a risk of having a hard time creating a strong and useful vacuum signal for the map sensor of modern EFI
-Consider a different manifold than ITBs (lancia, later Fiat Coupes)
I will need cams of greater than stock, and that seems like it might be somewhat troublesome, if I can't solve the MAP issue above
-ca specs to be determined
Adjustable cam wheels
On an 8V head, big valves are a must, having the head ported and flowed seems wise.
-The Lancia 16V head can be reverse installed and made to work, but it isn't easy.
Make sure the 9:8 pistons I have are forged
Balancing the rods, pistons and crank is important, but lightening the crank is probably not worth much.
A light flywheel IS worthwhile

Has anyone used a gated sump? Are they still available? How aboug a windage tray?

Am I missing anything obvious?
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SimcaBertone66
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by SimcaBertone66 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:48 am

This is what has worked, and continues to work for me in actual use on a race track, and the street …. 3 quart Accusump with electric valve, Ishrarwi/Johnson crank scraper with internal baffles, PBS mods to oiling system, re: restrict flow to cam boxes, and enlarge oil drain back from cam boxes.... So called "big wing" sumps are impressive but the Accusump gives a pretty much fail safe method of maintaining oil pressure in cornering and deceleration …… And I have video documentation of this in actual use.... car gets tossed into a corner , OP gauge shows a dip in OP and almost instantaneously the needle heads the other direction … with a higher OP …
Joe DeGasperis
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vandor
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Re: Daydreaming a 2 litre

Post by vandor » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:46 pm

atruscott wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:15 pm
Hey Csaba - on the micro/mega squirt, the Wideband O2 plays a pretty big part too... I've been playing with not using vacuum at all.
Yes, I bet using a wideband with enough computing power could solve a lot of the issues, especially if the system could self learn.
I just don't want to be the one who has to figure it out :-)
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